Feature request: PS note rendering. Rimshot velocity <- head

[Alek_A]

Hi!

I've read and done some research on VSTi (Superior Drummer, BFD, Most popular Kontakt libraries) and found out that only SD and BFD support PS only on snare. (I don't have Addictive Drums but it also supports PS on snare). In Kontakt PS can be done with scripting (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2007), but it's a hard way, time and efforts consuming. It's totally inappropriate if we want to find best sounding instrument quickly.
Although almost all of the instruments provide samples for different zones of drums, I found only one, capable of handling CC16 as PS value on toms.

Suggestion is to add an option of rendering different notes depending on PS value. Then we can turn PS-unaware instruments to PS-capable and also use PS on toms!

I thought about simple interface but rich functionality, and come up with the idea of introducing poly-linear curves that can be defined with only 4 numbers on the separate tab, and then then can be chosen in pad settings. I suggest adding additional field to the pad settings called "Pos ctl" which is by default set to "CC". In this field you can choose from "CC" or any named poly-linear curve defined on the separate tab.
If you choose anything other than CC, then "Note", "Alt Note" and "Pressroll Note" become "Note 1", "Note 2" and "Note 3", and interpreted differently; also MegaDrum engine starts to emit different notes depending on PS value instead of CC followed by note. You can even define crossfade intervals in this poly-linear curves so that it become possible to use smooth transitions from center to the edge of head accomplished by sending two notes with the interpolated velocities (ex. closer to the center - higher "Note 1" velocity, lower "Note 2" velocity; closer to the edge - lower "Note 1" velocity, higher "Note 2" velocity". see "2p-smooth" graph on the picture). It will be possible to do up to 3 notes interpolation.

Feature-PS-mapping6.png

Dmitri, I also ask you to implement the functionality to pick up note velocity for rim shots from head piezo instead of rim piezo and to make rim shots also PS capable. In this case It become possible to use all 7 articulations ( as shown in picture ) in software instruments.

[dmitri]

Hi!

I've read and done some research on VSTi (Superior Drummer, BFD, Most popular Kontakt libraries) and found out that only SD and BFD support PS only on snare. (I don't have Addictive Drums but it also supports PS on snare). In Kontakt PS can be done with scripting (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2007), but it's a hard way, time and efforts consuming. It's totally inappropriate if we want to find best sounding instrument quickly.
Although almost all of the instruments provide samples for different zones of drums, I found only one, capable of handling CC16 as PS value on toms.

Suggestion is to add an option of rendering different notes depending on PS value. Then we can turn PS-unaware instruments to PS-capable and also use PS on toms!

I thought about simple interface but rich functionality, and come up with the idea of introducing poly-linear curves that can be defined with only 4 numbers on the separate tab, and then then can be chosen in pad settings. I suggest adding additional field to the pad settings called "Pos ctl" which is by default set to "CC". In this field you can choose from "CC" or any named poly-linear curve defined on the separate tab.
If you choose anything other than CC, then "Note", "Alt Note" and "Pressroll Note" become "Note 1", "Note 2" and "Note 3", and interpreted differently; also MegaDrum engine starts to emit different notes depending on PS value instead of CC followed by note. You can even define crossfade intervals in this poly-linear curves so that it become possible to use smooth transitions from center to the edge of head accomplished by sending two notes with the interpolated velocities (ex. closer to the center - higher "Note 1" velocity, lower "Note 2" velocity; closer to the edge - lower "Note 1" velocity, higher "Note 2" velocity". see "2p-smooth" graph on the picture).

This will requite quite complex changes in firmware to provide the same functionality which PS CC already provides. I believe that the information which is already provided by MegaDrum should be handled in a PC (VST) rather than trying to present the same information in a different way.
What about asking VST developers about adding PS functionality on more than one input?

Dmitri, I also ask you to implement the functionality to pick up note velocity for rim shots from head piezo instead of rim piezo and to make rim shots also PS capable. In this case It become possible to use all 7 articulations ( as shown in picture ) in software instruments.

If I understood it right than it won't work. When you hit the rim, signal on the head piezo is very low and is not suitable for PS because there is no hit on the mesh itself. Besides, what's the point if the position of the hit is already known - it's on the rim, isn't it?

[angr77]

Alek,

First, Impressing ideas and a well done research....and presentation! Thanks!
If I look in addictive drums...and count how many samples they offer for e.g toms...it is only 2 sounds...head and rim. The snare offer 6-7 different samples...but here you got the PS functionality. The proposed MD PS implementation would add some more complexity to explain to users!

Dare I ask you which VST implementation that was supporting PS on Toms?

Best Regards

Angr77

[Alek_A]

This will requite quite complex changes in firmware to provide the same functionality which PS CC already provides. I believe that the information which is already provided by MegaDrum should be handled in a PC (VST) rather than trying to present the same information in a different way.
What about asking VST developers about adding PS functionality on more than one input

Some of the libraries are unsupported as far as I know. Also in my experience developers are mostly not as responsive and hardworking as you, Dmitry!) So my opinion - it should be done once and for all! How can we implement it? Midi transformer program - induces latency. Host native plugins are not powerful enough to do this(Ableton). Ableton MAX framework induces latency, I can confirm this. I searched for VST midi plugins half a year ago but didn't succeeded(they didn't work in Ableton) and they might also induce latency though I didn't check it. So it seems that there are only two ways: ask Ableton to implement it but I'm afraid they'll say it is too specific, but again it will be only for Ableton, but I'll write them anyway:) Or change every plugin which I suppose doesn't worth trying.
Also please let me know if there is a way that I can do a part of work in modifying firmware as I'm also a programmer.

If I understood it right than it won't work. When you hit the rim, signal on the head piezo is very low and is not suitable for PS because there is no hit on the mesh itself. Besides, what's the point if the position of the hit is already known - it's on the rim, isn't it?

Dmitri, I'm not a professional drummer but I thought that when you do a rimshot you aiming to hit the head mostly. It is also confirmed in videos over the net. The picture above shows that there are three different articulations: centered rimshot, half way out rimshot and out rimshot. So the position plays important role. I checked by shifting midpoint that position of rimshot is determined more or less reliably. Not as good as with pure head shot but still we'll enough to determine the zone of the drum!

[dmitri]

This will requite quite complex changes in firmware to provide the same functionality which PS CC already provides. I believe that the information which is already provided by MegaDrum should be handled in a PC (VST) rather than trying to present the same information in a different way.
What about asking VST developers about adding PS functionality on more than one input

Some of the libraries are unsupported as far as I know. Also in my experience developers are mostly not as responsive and hardworking as you, Dmitry!) So my opinion - it should be done once and for all! How can we implement it? Midi transformer program - induces latency. Host native plugins are not powerful enough to do this(Ableton). Ableton MAX framework induces latency, I can confirm this. I searched for VST midi plugins half a year ago but didn't succeeded(they didn't work in Ableton) and they might also induce latency though I didn't check it. So it seems that there are only two ways: ask Ableton to implement it but I'm afraid they'll say it is too specific, but again it will be only for Ableton, but I'll write them anyway:) Or change every plugin which I suppose doesn't worth trying.
Also please let me know if there is a way that I can do a part of work in modifying firmware as I'm also a programmer.

The keys thing is "it is too specific". How many people besides you want/need this functionality? If it is a very small number then it will feel like very wasteful spending quite a lot of time on implementing this functionality.
Besides, it will make MegaDrum configuration even more complex and, believe me, there are more people who already find the number of settings in MegaDrum and perceived complexity a bit too high.

If I understood it right than it won't work. When you hit the rim, signal on the head piezo is very low and is not suitable for PS because there is no hit on the mesh itself. Besides, what's the point if the position of the hit is already known - it's on the rim, isn't it?

Dmitri, I'm not a professional drummer but I thought that when you do a rimshot you aiming to hit the head mostly. It is also confirmed in videos over the net. The picture above shows that there are three different articulations: centered rimshot, half way out rimshot and out rimshot. So the position plays important role. I checked by shifting midpoint that position of rimshot is determined more or less reliably. Not as good as with pure head shot but still we'll enough to determine the zone of the drum!

Ah! I mistook it for a rim hit. So, you're saying the Positional sensing data is still good with rimshots? It may be simpler to implement on its own without complicating settings too much.

[airflamesred]

There does indeed seem to be a misconception the MD is very complicated.

[Alek_A]

The keys thing is "it is too specific".

Actually I meant: too specific for basic midi plugin set in Ableton We can insert checkbox " [] advanced" in the interface and hide all the complexity when unchecked But if it is really time consuming that is another matter. I definitely happy with the current firmware. But I'll think a bit more about this...

Ah! I mistook it for a rim hit. So, you're saying the Positional sensing data is still good with rimshots? It may be simpler to implement on its own without complicating settings too much.

Yeah! That would be great!

[Alek_A]

There does indeed seem to be a misconception the MD is very complicated.

Sorry, it is my presentation that is too complex(. The idea is simple. But sadly it is too hard to implement.

[airflamesred]

Sorry, it is my presentation that is too complex(. The idea is simple. But sadly it is too hard to implement.

Not at all. What I meant was that I see a lot of people migrating towards VST but still seem to feel the need to go and buy a TD** just for the trigger interface.
You presented your idea well but I'm agreeing with Dmitri on this that this can, and is better done, in Kontakt.

Under 'scripts - factory' there is a 'drum articulations' That, combined with 'transpose' may do the trick. I'll take a closer look later.

[Alek_A]

airflamesred, Thank you very much! I'll check it) The question remains how to do it with Superior Drummer...