Rim splitting

[Elegantdrum]

I placed a large post about everything I'm trying to do with an E-kit. see "As good as it gets". I though it would be helpful to break up some of the specific Ideas for this forum.

This post is about controlling rims of mesh heads. Mainly for snare, but it can be used for toms too.

My goal is to have multiple rim levels for any given head level. Or multiple head level for any level of rim.
Another way to look at is this. Say I have a head strike level of 64. I desire to have a rim level of 5 or 125 or anywhere between with the head strike of 64.
I would use the two levels to pull two separate sounds that are mixed together.

I Know that Roland/Hart/Pintech all use what I have come to call "switch" triggers. By design, they only have a single level and a switch that decides the note number of head or rim.

I was able to create the desired effect once using two inputs of a TD-20. One for the rim, one for the head. both receiving information from the single trigger output. By removing the rim information from one of the two inputs, I was getting the desired result. This did not work on a TD-30, they changed the inputs somehow. This also only worked with internal sounds. The midi stream didn't appear to have the required information to create the effect. I suspect the internal rim sound controls on a TD-20 were using information beyond what is transmitted in MIDI. In specific, I think it understood how far the switch position was past the switch point.

One thing that did happen with that setup was lost sensitivity. When one trigger output was plugged into two inputs, I had to turn up the sensitivity. The trigger was seeing the resistance of both brain inputs. This was not a problem, just another step in the process. As I typically run Roland stuff at a sensitivity setting of 2 or 3. At a level of 2, I get to use full sized sticks and play at the same level I play real drums with.

Still waiting on my Megadrum to show up, any day now. so I can't test anything yet.

I have never taken a multi meter to the outputs of a trigger, so I will start by asking for input from people who have.

Now to the questions:
What signals come out of a switch trigger type pad. Do both the head (guess tip) and rim (guess ring) both transmit a level? or is the ring the switch where it decides if the sound is rim or not.

In general, I would like to understand what is being measured, and how the Megadrum uses rim information so that I can try to accomplish varying rim level for any level of head.

This also brings up the thought of using a separate rim trigger, but I have never been able to correctly control the cross talk for an add-on trigger attached to the rim.

I desire to keep things clean sounding, ie a reliable level and no false triggering.

The reason to keep all the information coming from a single trigger is all of the snare options available in the software and or brains. Cross stick, Brushes, position, etc.....the snare can be a very complex set of sounds to map. I desire to keep all of those options available while have a variable rim level.


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I think I have solved the problem. After doing due diligence and reading the manuals for Megadrum. I simply plug each switch/mesh drum into two inputs using a headphone splitter. Then tune one input for the head, and tune the other input for the rim. This way I have more adjustments between the rim and head including the ability to have them trigger different sounds at the same/overlapping time. The questions become.

1. Is there a good way to cheaply make an isolation splitter, kind of like a splitter snake for audio. This way, the two inputs don't interact resistance wise. ...Thoughts? Idea's?
2. is there any disadvantage (other than terms, and one type of note variation) to use the lower row of inputs for drums vs cymbals (it's designed for the bow bell not rim edge)?
3. What inputs on a pre-built 56 have position sensing?
4. The position sensitive inputs are a bit cooler than the other because more resistance is hooked up?

[airflamesred]

My goal is to have multiple rim levels for any given head level. Or multiple head level for any level of rim.
Another way to look at is this. Say I have a head strike level of 64. I desire to have a rim level of 5 or 125 or anywhere between with the head strike of 64.
I would use the two levels to pull two separate sounds that are mixed together.

Although this works, I find more reliability in setting up your samples according to velocity.

What signals come out of a switch trigger type pad. Do both the head (guess tip) and rim (guess ring) both transmit a level? or is the ring the switch where it decides if the sound is rim or not.

1 piezo and a switch that triggers above a certain velocity. If the velocity is reached then a different sample is played.

This also brings up the thought of using a separate rim trigger, but I have never been able to correctly control the cross talk for an add-on trigger attached to the rim.

As has been shown by many an example on this forum that 2 piezos on the same surface (plane) don't work.

I think I have solved the problem. After doing due diligence and reading the manuals for Megadrum. I simply plug each switch/mesh drum into two inputs using a headphone splitter. Then tune one input for the head, and tune the other input for the rim. This way I have more adjustments between the rim and head including the ability to have them trigger different sounds at the same/overlapping time.

Just to be clear, you will get overlapping but that's all. I have my cymbals wired this way. You can adjust the velocity curves and get some interesting effects.

[dmitri]

With piezo/switch dual zone pads/cymbals MegaDrum provides variable velocity for both head/bow and rim/edge hits. This zone to trigger MegaDrum detects based on the state of the rim/edge switch at the time of a hit. Velocity on the rim/edge hits is calculated from the signal level of the head/bow piezo. MegaDrum can also trigger 3rd note (dampened note) if you press (and keep pressed) the rim/edge switch and then hit the pad/cymbal.

[Elegantdrum]

Thank you both. That clears some things up for me. This also implies I may get what I want done using a single input if I can get the sounds to not get cut off. One of the things I'm trying to achieve is a greater feeling of dynamics. With the rim volume adding to the volume of a full 127 head strike, the real life dynamics of a rim shot is in play. Also what I call the "cartoon drum roll" is much easier to pull off with this kind of setup. I have yet to figure out how to send one midi input to two note numbers without using two inputs.

Roland brains did include the ability to add one roaming control that created a blending of two sounds. In the software, could one channel steel it's information from another?

I also plan to set up some Velocity sensitive reverb. Where the reverb decreases as the sound gets loud. Just a low level plate that parts of the drum sound, not the mixing reverb that typically a room, hall, or cathedral. I also plan to use that to get a cupped ride bell sound using a controller adding in a bit of pitch shift..

After reading through all this again: This is in addition to the velocity. Both the head and rim get there own curves and controls. The twist is in the desire to have two sounds overlapping in specific ways. A rim can ring through 30 head hits this way.

[dmitri]

I'm not sure I understan what sounds you are planing blend with a piezo/switch type dual zone pads/cymbals but I can tell you that you can get only one note (sound) at a time - either a head/bow or a rim/edge or a dampened note.

[Elegantdrum]

That's why I'm taking one trigger and plugging it into two inputs.
Then I can have two different note numbers at once.
And gain the controls I'm looking for over rim and head.
Was asking if the software could help out somehow.
Or is some Special wiring would help multi triggers inputs to work like a mic splitter.

Had other stuff going on, software tomorrow.