Pad sensitivity not that great for medium and hard hits

[drumsdibums]

Hi everyone!

I am testing out my DIY Meshead Pads and adjusting the settings on the Megadrum Box.

I went back and forth adjusting the settings, playing with the curves too etc.
so far it looks promising… but I am not 100% there.

I followed mostly the tips I found here on the forum and the recommendations of Dimitry as well as ANGR77.
sometimes I used really low value and raised it from there.

You will find the settings I used as well as the Mesh head drums I build down bellow.

——----

The main problems I have and where I could need some help are the following two issues:
maybe it is a setting thing… maybe I could also improve the design of my meshheads?
(I disabled the ring piezo for this test)


1) PAD Sensitivity:
- The Sensitivity of light strokes (maybe bellow 25-30?) is absolutely phenomenal, constant, reproducible and accurate!
What I did was to let the drumstick fall and bounce of the meshhead.
It might be a tiny bit to sensitiv in the middle and a maybe just not sensitive enough around that sweet spot.

- but in the middle field(between 35-75) It gets a bit random and less predictable.
I could hit with a medium force (60) and get a value of 40. Then hit a bit lighter (40) and get a value of 60.
I can play dynamically… but it is more like that the correct dynamics are in the light strokes and the middle field is more random and less predictable.
so I can accentuate…but the same hit can be quite different interpreted, and often the last final strong hit ends up quite a bit softer than the middle force hits bevore.

- for the strongest hits:
this is strange: I can hit with full force and sometimes get a value of 127. Then I hit with full force (or even harder) and I get allways the exact same value (101 for example, the number does not really matter) but lower than 127.
I have no Idea why this is behaving in such a way?

I tried to hit the same spot on my drums… maybe I can adjust the Mesheads in a way so that I don’t have such a hotspot?
Any tips would be great!

Might I still benefit from installing a voltage divider? (even though I seem to be in the save zone (High Level around 550 for the Snare and 250 for the tom)


2) „squasched“ notes:

I had the impression that this issue is now better with the current settings.
But I would still like to know which parameters I need to adjust to improve this issue.

I had the impression that my settings where ok and I did not had any after hits, false notes or other issues.
But when I drum a fast and complex figure and then listen back to what I recorded in my DAW,
it sounds a bit like if someone who is not skilled enough tried to play it and did not have the timing correct and played it a bit floppy.
I don’t really hear false hits or after hits…it s more like if some hits come a bit early, some a bit late, some hits are closer together than what they should be.


As for my Mesh Heads:
For testing I just had them on my lap… so not mounted on a rack…then I whack…what the hack!

Piezo used: 4,4 kHZ / 200Ohm / 21. pF / 27mm
Found here: https://www.reichelt.de/Signalakustik/E ... PZ-27MS44W

These are cheap tunable handdrums from thoman.de with Mesh-Heads.

12“ Snare: Piezo is under a foamcone on a small piece of wood > piece of Foam inside the aluminium bar. ring piezo is directly under it on the aluminium bar.

8“ Tom: Piezo is mounted inside the drum with some foamy scotchtape on the L bracket. on top is a foamblock

both Foams „push“ into the meshhead by 2mm.


Thanks for helping me adjust the settings correctly and/or improve the design of my Meshheads!

Have a good drumming day!

Chris

>>> p.s I edited the post and added Screenshots of my Megadrum Settings<<<

[ignotus]

DIY centre cones are very hit and miss. The smallest change in material or setup can change the response radically. You could try lowering/raising the cone height, use a different foam, change the material/diameter of the foam under the piezo... There are so many variables that it's a matter of painstaking trial and error that can drive you up the wall. It's part of the reason why I ditched centre mounted triggers and just use side mounted - much easier to get right and make.

[drumsdibums]

DIY centre cones are very hit and miss....You could try lowering/raising the cone height, use a different foam, change the material/diameter of the foam under the piezo... It's part of the reason why I ditched centre mounted triggers and just use side mounted - much easier to get right and make.

thanks for the suggestion and tips... hmm...that is interesting.
So you think side mounted triggers are easier to deal with?

I had the impression that my design / Mesh Heads work relatively good... they are just not there 100%.
The center cone was imho more sensitive but had more of a hotspot. the side mounted piezo was not sensitive enough.
Biggest Issue I had was the random sensitivity above a value of 40.

Did you had a look at my images of my Mesh Drums and the settings I used?
what do you think?

as for the settings: I think I had many values positions quite low... which I would think of as a good thing. ?

as for the mesh head construction:
I followed some stuff I found online. manly r-drums.com and VdrumTips on Youtube (which are the same guys I guess)

I used 3M Sanding Sponge Foam which was recommended somewhere.
I cut the Foam Cone just with a knife... I thought it does not matter to much. have seen people use just a foamblock even for central placed piezos.

Would it help to dampen the mesh from vibrating by inserting some foam at the sides? > to stop vibrations after the hit?

I thought that with my design... theres nothing inherently wrong..
I have seen some open commercial mesh e-drums (Alesis, Roland etc) they look whey simpler and less sophisticated imho. but often they have a lot more foam inside and/or the piezo was indirectly mounted on a plate below some thick foam.

I will try your suggestions (raising/lowering the cone)

[drumsdibums]

p.s like your signature... I guess thats what I am working at the moment

what would lowering/rising the cone actually do?

lowering the cone > it gets more sensitive?
raising the cone > it gets less sensitive?

[ignotus]

It looks like you don't have anything under the piezo to let it flex. The usual setup (from top-down) is: cone -> piezo -> rubber or foam ring the diameter of the ceramic part of the piezo -> platform. This leaves the outer part of the piezo free to vibrate.

I do my side-mounted triggers like this:

trigger.jpg

Here, I support the edges underneath and add a small circle on top in the centre. The piezo flexes very easily and these triggers are very sensitive. The foam I use is a bit harder than sanding block foam (medium-density poron), though something like mousepad foam should work well enough.

Your setup may may be ok in principle, but as I said, given that you're DIYing all the parts, the tiniest variations can cause it all to go wrong. It's easy enough to get your triggering 90% of the way, but that last 10% can be very tricky to achieve.

what would lowering/rising the cone actually do?

lowering the cone > it gets more sensitive?
raising the cone > it gets less sensitive?

No, the other way around, though there's a sweet spot. Head tension is also important - it should be fairly tight.

He he, my signature is because I'd have something working 99%, would attempt to scrape that 1% and would then screw it up and have to start all over again. Again and again. With my side-mounted triggers I reckon I'm now at 99.9% and am learning to leave things alone and consider the possibility that that 0.1% is just in my mind.

[drumsdibums]

Thanks Ignotus! This helped a lot!
(btw. have not tried it so far but it sounds logical)

So the consensus is that it has to do (a lot?) more with the mesh head trigger design than with the megadrum settings?

The main things I want to address are:
- get a more uniform, realiable Pad sensitivity (like I now have for the soft hits)
- Get rid of what I described as a "squashed notes" problem. > this might be more related to settings i guess

It looks like you don't have anything under the piezo to let it flex.

that might well be the case. I did not put enough attention to that. Thanks for your suggestion!

1) Do I always mount so that the ceramic disc faces the surface it is picking up?
2) does the cone go directly (full surface contact) to the piezo or also with a smaller piece of foamy scotchtape?
3) Does it need to fit exactly the ceramic disc, or could I just use a square piece and leave enough room around?

to clarify you have it like that: A ring for under the piezo and a small (round?) piece on top of the piezo that would fit inside that ring?


so the desired setup would be:
mesh-head>foamcone or 2mm foam surface (pressing a bit into the mesh, adjust this for sensitivity)
>piezo (ceramic disc facing to the mesh?)>smaller pieco of foamy scotch tape>hard surface(wood/metal)>foam for decoupling>mouting thing.

(I tested one piezo, it produced a nice declining positive first wave/signal, they are all the same brand and make, so they all might be the same.)



Rimtrigger:
I have them mounted on the woodshell with a foamy (0.5-1mm) scotch tape.
That might be enough... maybe I will use two layers and I will need to cut them to better fit the ceramic disc only.


Headtrigger mounted on L bracked:

- thanks for the image. will use this as a guide.

- I have seen that Ddrum Trigger an others have the piezo really close to the mesh under a thin 1mm layer of something (rubber?) and then a large block of foam for decoupling. Is this the desired way to do it? (my design was kind of the other way round)

Headtrigger on center:
- definitely need to adjust it so the piezo is floating. @ the moment it is just: piece of wood>normal double sided tape>piezo>cone

3) benefit of a cone? > less hotspot issues? or could I just use a 1x1 cm square piece of foam
4) benefit of central mounted piezo >positional sensing! other than that it is more trouble than benefit?


cheers

Chris

[ignotus]

So the consensus is that it has to do (a lot?) more with the mesh head trigger design than with the megadrum settings?

It's a bit of both, but the module needs the physical setup to meet some minimum conditions; it can only work with what the piezo gives it, and if the signal is erratic there's not much it can do.

The main things I want to address are:
- get a more uniform, realiable Pad sensitivity (like I now have for the soft hits)
- Get rid of what I described as a "squashed notes" problem. > this might be more related to settings i guess

I think this needs to be improved by tweaking the trigger itself, it should be more or less linear, and then with curves or whatever in the module.

1) Do I always mount so that the ceramic disc faces the surface it is picking up?
2) does the cone go directly (full surface contact) to the piezo or also with a smaller piece of foamy scotchtape?
3) Does it need to fit exactly the ceramic disc, or could I just use a square piece and leave enough room around?

1) Not necessarily essential.
2) Fully in contact, most importantly around the outer perimeter.
3) It can be slightly smaller, bigger or a square - you can also experiment with this. You just need to let the piezo flex a bit giving it a fulcrum point.

to clarify you have it like that: A ring for under the piezo and a small (round?) piece on top of the piezo that would fit inside that ring?

I don't even use a ring (no harm in doing that), just a strip on either side and a small circle on top that is in between.

so the desired setup would be:
mesh-head>foamcone or 2mm foam surface (pressing a bit into the mesh, adjust this for sensitivity)
>piezo (ceramic disc facing to the mesh?)>smaller pieco of foamy scotch tape>hard surface(wood/metal)>foam for decoupling>mouting thing.

Sounds ok.

Rimtrigger:
I have them mounted on the woodshell with a foamy (0.5-1mm) scotch tape.
That might be enough... maybe I will use two layers and I will need to cut them to better fit the ceramic disc only.

I just glue the rim triggers with hot glue straight onto the shell or to the bracket supporting the side trigger. I just make sure the whole surface of the piezo isn't glued, leaving some of it "free".

- I have seen that Ddrum Trigger an others have the piezo really close to the mesh under a thin 1mm layer of something (rubber?) and then a large block of foam for decoupling. Is this the desired way to do it? (my design was kind of the other way round)

That's just another way of doing it, but I think you're talking about those external triggers. Those are protected (you can't hit the piezo directly), but if you did that with the piezo under the mesh head, you risk breaking it if you hit it.

3) benefit of a cone? > less hotspot issues? or could I just use a 1x1 cm square piece of foam

Maybe a smaller hotspot than with a square, but it will always be there.

4) benefit of central mounted piezo >positional sensing! other than that it is more trouble than benefit?

I managed to get positional sensing with a side-mounted trigger. From that point on I couldn't see any reason to use a central trigger any more. In any event, I don't use PS - it's a "cool" feature but unless it's something that's important for your style of playing, you won't really miss it if you don't have/use it.

[drumsdibums]

guess I will change some stuff you suggested on the trigger design, then try and adjust the settings and see where that leads me.

my guess is: it works sort off, the design is not completely off but I really need to insure that the piezos are able to move freely...

2) Fully in contact, most importantly around the outer perimeter.

again... as for the piezo to smaller foam scotchtape thing so it can vibrate freely...to make this clear:

so the cone... or the 2mm mousepad that goes between meshhead and the piezo
1) MUST connect/couple to the outer diameter of the Piezo directly (thin double sided tape or glue
... So I don't want to have a small round foamy scotchtape between the cone/mousepad and the piezo?

2) on the other side of the piezo I want a small piece of foam (foamy scotchtape, mirrortape) sticked to the piezo ceramic disc part only (inner diameter)
so that the "ring of the piezo hangs in the air?

talking about those external triggers

Yes I was... but I guess If you have maybe 5mm mouse mat in between they should be safe.

I managed to get positional sensing with a side-mounted trigger.

really? does it work well enough?

I bought the megadrum Kit with positional sensing... thought better have it than not. Not sure if stevenslatedrums, or the drums in logic pro x would support it? I might just use the logic drums or the MT Powerdrumkit 2 (which is free) for a start.

So no real benefit to use a central mounted Piezo trigger design?
You might have convinced me to do all the rest of the pads with a simple L Bracked Trigger!


I would then also need to find "something" that glues these materials: mousepad / Foam etc. well together

[drumsdibums]

@ Ignotus

was googling "positional sensing with side mounted piezo" and found your video on vdrums.com!

> might that be a better place to ask for infos on DIY Trigger / mesh head design?
I will also going to make some 3 zone yamaha style cymbal (with a resistor) and a Hi Hat Pedal (with a Hall sensor)

[ignotus]

so the cone... or the 2mm mousepad that goes between meshhead and the piezo
1) MUST connect/couple to the outer diameter of the Piezo directly (thin double sided tape or glue
... So I don't want to have a small round foamy scotchtape between the cone/mousepad and the piezo?

2) on the other side of the piezo I want a small piece of foam (foamy scotchtape, mirrortape) sticked to the piezo ceramic disc part only (inner diameter)
so that the "ring of the piezo hangs in the air?

I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding here.

If you're using a cone, it's a centre-mounted trigger. In this case, yes, the cone should contact the outer perimeter and no, no round foamy piece between the cone and the piezo. Under the piezo you need a small disc, the diameter of the ceramic part, about 1-2 mm thick. That's it. In this case, the piezo perimeter flexes downwards and the centre upwards when hit.

If making it side-mounted, I rest the piezo on two strips of foam (about 30 mm thick and 5 mm wide) at opposite edges of the piezo, and on top I add a 1 cm diameter, 5 mm-thick circle of foam, in the centre. In this case, the piezo flexes in the opposite direction to the case above when hit.

Hope this clears things.

really? does it work well enough?

It worked just as well as with a centre piezo. I'm pretty sure I created a topic here about how I did it but I can't seem to find it... I see you found it elsewhere anyway.

I bought the megadrum Kit with positional sensing... thought better have it than not. Not sure if stevenslatedrums, or the drums in logic pro x would support it? I might just use the logic drums or the MT Powerdrumkit 2 (which is free) for a start.

I know Superior Drummer and Addictive drums support it (just on snare, it won't work on cymbals), but I don't know about the rest.

So no real benefit to use a central mounted Piezo trigger design?
You might have convinced me to do all the rest of the pads with a simple L Bracked Trigger!

I would say no; it's much harder to get right doing it all DIY and it gives you hotspots. If PS is important to you, you can get it to work with side-mounted triggers anyway, so -in my opinion- it makes more sense to stick with side-mounted.

I would then also need to find "something" that glues these materials: mousepad / Foam etc. well together

I just use double-sided tape (not the foamy type).

Yes, the vdrums forum is a good resource for making DIY pads.

You can check out these I made if you're looking for 3-zone cymbal ideas: http://www.megadrum.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2869