Latency with Superior Drummer 2 and Ableton Live?

[Thurston]

Hello, new member here!

First of all I just want to thank everyone for posting their build attempts, tips and information. I've been reading posts here for a few days as well as over on the vdrums.com forum and I'm considering building my own electronic drumkit as well as building a megadrum module. I can't believe how many people (worldwide ) are into this! The information is plentiful and the forums are constantly active.

I was considering building my own PCB and really doing it from scratch, but after sourcing some of the parts involved and reading about issues people have with their DIY boards and sourcing some of the harder to find parts, I think I'll be going with the kit from Synthex.

I currently own an old drumset that will be used for the shells, etc. I'm looking at mesh heads, the various types of triggering designs, hi-hat and cymbal designs, etc, etc, etc. There's a lot to think about and the mechanical side of things will be attacked once I get the module, electronics and software figured out.

I currently have a computer that runs windows XP with superior drummer 2.0 and Ableton Live 6. 2.4G Dual Core AMD processor, 2G RAM, and HT Omega Claro (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6829271002), good video card, etc.

My question is, will I be able to play my DIY drums through a megadrum, through USB connection to my computer using Superior Drummer and out my soundcard with un-noticable latency? What about if I am also running Ableton and recording while I monitor? I've seen others using external units from M-Audio, however I'd rather not spend money on such a unit if I can get by with my current soundcard.

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

You shouldn't have any latency issues, assuming everything in the chain is functioning as expected.

I run MegaDrum over USB into a 2nd gen Macbook Pro running Logic and BFD 1.5 and I have no issues with latency.

The audio interface is only really important for a few related things, but not so much when you're using the MegaDrum's USB connection since at that point your audio interface/card is only responsible for the OUTPUT, not the input. Most people use FW audio interfaces because they want many analog input channels or physical MIDI inputs. MegaDrum over USB is neither of those things.

The only way I foresee you having latency issues that are great enough to affect drum response is with configuration or hardware problems.

[Thurston]

I think it makes sense what you said about latency only occuring on the output side of things (i.e. trigger sensor signal + MIDI from module to computer is negligible).

Most people use FW audio interfaces because they want many analog input channels or physical MIDI inputs.

What is an example of a "physical" MIDI input?

So the M-Audio, etc interfaces are mostly for analogue inputs like a guitar or microphone? How do they route these signals? Do they still go through the computer to be processed by a DAW (Ableton) before they go to the output (earphones)? Do they route the analogue signals directly to the output? Maybe Both?

The only way I foresee you having latency issues that are great enough to affect drum response is with configuration or hardware problems.

So can any configuration problems be solved by tweaking the options in the programs I use? What hardware components might contribute to latency problems?

Sorry for all the questions, but I just want to figure out what I can about latency, both to help with any issues and also out of curiosity . Thanks for the response!

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

What is an example of a "physical" MIDI input?

By physical MIDI input I mean the 5 pin DIN connector that MIDI uses. Most audio interfaces have these. Before MegaDrum got the USB board, this is how one would have connected it to a PC. It would plug into an interface or any kind of audio hardware with a physical MIDI in port.

So the M-Audio, etc interfaces are mostly for analogue inputs like a guitar or microphone? How do they route these signals? Do they still go through the computer to be processed by a DAW (Ableton) before they go to the output (earphones)? Do they route the analogue signals directly to the output? Maybe Both?

Depends on the interface. But yes, they are mostly for many analog inputs/outputs. Traditional PCs with a sound card usually have one output and maybe two inputs (mic and line-in), audio interfaces exist to expand on this (and for quality as most basic sound cards are garbage). Routing is usually done like so instrument->interface->DAW->output where output could be your interface or any kind of audio output device you have connected.

Sorry for all the questions, but I just want to figure out what I can about latency, both to help with any issues and also out of curiosity . Thanks for the response!

No problem.

[-Aj-]

Hi Thurston

I believe I was posting in your thread back on Vdrums, about interfaces etc

Please understand I come from an engineering and production background, so I might have some different views in terms of quality of sound and what I'd like to be able to do with my kit.

If you had mentioned you were trying to get an E-kit on the cheap I would've had some very different suggestions to the M-audio interfaces I talked about, and please note that any interface is ok not just m-audio, M-audio are merely a popular choice at the moment with the introduction of pro-tools M powered.

If you are running S 2.0 on a lower quality setting then you should be fine, however running at a higher sample rate will probably cause issues if your computers soundcard is in charge of everything. I'd recommend making sure you have the latest ASIO drivers and whatnot for your card in order to squeeze max performance out of it.

Latency with the midi signal should never really be a problem (providing you follow midi spec cabling guidlines ie: no huge cables without boosters) and will definitely not be a problem in USB (which is much much faster than Midi's KBPS)

The latency most people are talking about that occurs with using software processing is caused by the digital signal processing (DSP) that must take place. An audio interface handles the DSP for the computer using specifically designed chipsets (ie it will do a better job than your soundcard) hence less latency. If you're running S2.0 through Ableton and start using a few plug ins here and there and some signal processing then you will start to notice the latency piling up without a dedicated audio interface

Another thing to consider is that with a computer soundcard you only have one output (in 90% of cases) so that means one mix avaliable.. for FOH and Headphones (no separate feeds) and anything else you might want.. not really great for anything other than jamming on your own but hey that could be your intended application!

Also the actual sound produced by a dedicated audio interface will 999 out of 1000 times sound better than your comps soundcard, as most interfaces these days have decent D-A converters which greatly affect the quality of sound, and hence why I wouldn't be caught dead without a dedicated interface, but like I said I have much different standards and expectations to the average consumer (as well as being able to hear the difference now, a blessing and a curse!)

hope this helps

Aj

[Thurston]

AJ-
Thank you for the explanation. Here again is my (add-on) soundcard for reference:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6829271002

How does an audio interface do what you say it does? The signal from the module enters the computer through USB. It then has to be somehow processed through SD 2.0 and Ableton before being converted from digital to analogue, either through the soundcard or the interface. If the latency occurs when effects, etc are mixed in to the signal in the computer programs, then isn't it my CPU that is handling it? It would seem that the soundcard or interface is only responsible for the D/A conversion after the mixing, no?

I'm not doubting what you are saying, and I very much appreciate your insight on something I know little about. I'm just trying to understand how the audio interface speeds things up. Thanks again for the help.

[Thurston]

By the way, I will get the latest ASIO drivers as you recommended. Thanks for the suggestion

[r0bbie]

Hi there,

This is my first post and i'm not realy a writer!

Ive been reading for weeks on several DIY drum building forums.
After having the idea of bying a Roland TD-9 combined with this financial cris..... things I have changed my mind.
I now think I can Do better than a of the shelf TD-9 for less money ( thanks to Dmitry and many more)
I love DIY, so I ordered the PCB with chips from Sythex.

But now my question, I am planning on running the MD on my laptop P4M 2 Ghz. 1Mb mem.
and probably EZdrummer or Superior, would the above still apply to my situation?

Thanks for your time and reply

Rob

[dmitri]

r0bbie, I apologise for late approval of your message. Due to recent spam outbreak I had to implement some measures, e.g. required approval of the first message by a new user. I accidentally missed yours.

[dizzib3]

I've got Superior Drummer 2 working with AL7 with latencies in the 1ms region using Windows Server 2008 x64 with an Echo Mia Midi. Echo's ASIO drivers are the most stable no-fuss drivers I've found having tried many soundcards, and their Vista x64 drivers go down to 32 samples.

IMHO millisecond latency is very important for live playing and recording.